Meeting Notes 2011 08 02
HOWTO run a meeting.
Pick a moderator, and a note-taker. The note-taker should:
- write notes in this page, put them back up online when they're done, CHECK
- edit the frontpage so that it points to this weeks and next week's meeting notes in the meeting bit, CHECK
- edit the Current Consensus Items if anything is decided to be up for consensus next week (stuff raised for consensus this week should be publicised for a final decision next week)
- edit the Consensus Items History if anything was consensed or failed to consense this week.
- tell firstname.lastname@example.org and email@example.com if there are new members.
- make sure everyone gets a chance to speak
- speak minimally themselves
- keep the meeting moving! you're in charge of summarising the consensus, and/or suggesting things that need to be done!
- get the membership binders and ensure they are returned to the black desk
Moderator: WHO IS IT I DON'T KNOW
OH WAIT IT'S KELLY
who is getting water
WE WILL MEET
Introduction and Names
- What Noisebridge is about: "Noisebridge is a 501c3 nonprofit that provides a space for creation, collaboration, and learning about technology and creative projects. Noisebridge provides space, power tools, and infrastructure to help the public learn new skills and create cool things. Noisebridge continues to exist through and depends entirely on membership fees and donations. Our code of conduct is 'Be excellent to each other'."
- Round of introductions: What's your name, what do you do, and if you are new, how did you hear about Noisebridge? Start with the moderator and go left.
- John, multilpe personalities but still john
- Bill (give him bow)
- dara drawing 8======================D
- mike (tech wanderer)
- chris he who is
- A brief primer on consensus process: We agree and so should you! Only paid-up members can block consensus.
OK WELCOME TO THE MEETING
Cool new projects? Something you'd like people to know? Say now, but keep it short!
- crutcher wants to give a donation for his dues but there's no way to pay his dues without it being a donation if he's late
- rayc cleaned up a like FUCKTON of stuff
- crutcher something something budget
- lief: steganography project (talk to him afterwards)
New or Stale Events
Is there anything new happening at the space? Is there anything that has stopped happening at the space?
Here are the current events (you don't need to read all of these out):
Not all events make it onto this calendar. Many events only make it to the Discussion or Announcements mailing lists, IRC or in person at Tuesday meetings. Best of all, Noisebridge is about people getting together at the space in San Francisco to do stuff. DO pay attention, as some events just arise organically from the bottom up!
Want to host your event at Noisebridge? We like seeing classes and talks on interesting things pertaining to various subjects of hacking. Most of all, we like seeing familiar faces. Please participate in the space and our weekly Tuesday meetings to see if we're the right audience for what you want to share before announcing a new event. Additionally, please see our events hosting page for suggestions on how to use Noisebridge for your event/class/workshop.
Upcoming Events edit
Consciousness Hack Sessions, The first of our Meetup-organized Consciousness Hack sessions, which are focused on hands-on collaborative development of new technologies for psychological, emotional and spiritual wellbeing. More info on the event and to register with Meetup here. Thursday, August 13, 18:30:
Geek Day of the Month, Food, drinks, hacker movies, sharing ideas. Geek Day of the Month is an excellent way to build a stronger bond among the community. Third Friday of the Month, movie: War Games Friday, August 21, 20:00:
GODWAFFLE NOISE PANCAKES, Godwafflenoisepancakes has Noisebands and vegan pancakes! Bands: TBA Saturday, September 12, 12:00:
Lunch w/ Hackers Hosted by Beijing Makerspace, Mingle while sharing food with a carefully-screened selection of visiting and open-minded Chinese government officials and entrepreneurs at Lunch w/ Hackers Hosted by Beijing Makerspace! Monday, September 28, 13:00:
Recurring Events edit
E - Every week.
1st - Certain weeks, e.g. 1st week only.
-2nd - Except certain weeks, or other schedule exceptions.
- E 7:30 pm to 10:00 pm Circuit Hacking Mondays - Learn to solder! And make cool things with electronics. Mitch, J, Rolf, Miloh, Cedric, Cheng, Greg, and/or a host of others will bring kits-for-purchase to make cool, hackable things for all skill levels that you can bring home after you make them! Many designed for absolute beginners! Bring your own projects to hack! Bring things to fix! All ages. All are welcome! See the Discuss list and the Announce list for weekly updates.
- E 8:00 pm to 10:00 pm Front-end Web Development - Learn HTML/CSS/JS. A series of talks on different topics every week, taught in the Church classroom. Recap of last week's material starts at 7:30 pm. Join the WebDev list or the Announce list for updates.
- E Take Out the Trash Night -- Round One Be sure to put bins out by midnight as the trash truck comes between 1:30 to 2:30am.
- E 7:00 pm to 9:00 pm Intermediate Python with PyClass - Crash course in the Python standard library. Monday session is held in Turing Classroom.
- E 7:00 pm to 9:00 pm Ruby and Rails class - Seminar and workshop for learning everything about Ruby, Rails, and web application development (Church classroom). See the Announce list for weekly updates.
- E 7:00 pm to 10:00 pm Gamebridge Unityversity Unity Game Dev Tuesdays - Beginner-friendly Unity C# game development class and game developer meetup, art design writing and audio all welcome! Learn how to mentor and help teach game dev. (Turing classroom). See the Announce list for weekly updates.
- E 7:30 pm Noisebridge Weekly Meeting - Introducing new people and events to the space, general discussion, and decision-making on key issues. This is your space, folks. Come on out here in person to express what you think about what's going on with it!
- E 7:00 pm Digital Archivists - Learn how to scan books and help build book scanners.
- 3rd alternating monthly 7:00 pm to 9:30 pm Next NB meetup Wed 19th August, alternating monthly between SF and South Bay - Cyberspectrum: Software Defined Radio Meetup in the Hackatorium (new): A place to learn and exchange ideas about SDR. Presentations on concepts, mystery signals, hardware/software and cool applications.
- 1st 7:30pm to 10pm in Church room. Present personal and expressive art made with software programming and other materials and get feedback and critical dialogue from fellow artist/technologists. Find collaborators and find better ways to make such work. See info here: With (software) art(); meetup. Please communicate with leader [firstname.lastname@example.org Jeffrey Greenberg] in advance to present.
- E 8:00 pm to 10:00 pm Dream Team Neuro Hackery - EEG research & development project with general interest in sleep, dreaming, creative intelligence, and many loosely related topics such as: neurophysiology, signal processing, cognitive neuroscience, and (especially) hacking code and devices for data acquisition and analysis. Join us at the CollaborationStation (near the Hackatorium). Expect general discussion around 8 PM - usually moving along by 9 PM to focus on more technical aspects of current project.
- E Trash Night -- Round Two - Take out the trash for Friday morning! Do it by midnight as truck comes ~1:30am to 2:30am.
- 3rd 6:00 pm to 9:00 pm Friends of FreeBSD welcomes all skill levels to learn more about FreeBSD, to actually use and help promote the FreeBSD project, and to get involved in preventing this operating system from dying.
- 2nd4th 6:30 pm to 7:30 pm SF Bootstrappers Office Hours @ Noisebridge - Come to Noisebridge 2nd and 4th Thursdays 6:30 to 7:30 and get the kickstart you need to solve your most burning problem.This is a group for experts to help novices and novices to get the much needed advice they need on their projects
- E 7:00 pm to 9:00 pm Intermediate Python with PyClass - Crash course in the Python standard library. Thursday is held in Church Classroom.
- E 7:00 pm to 9:00 pm Front-end Web Development Lab - Understand by doing! A recap of Monday's lecture in workshop form - and a good time for one-on-one help with the material. Meets in Turing.
- 3rd 7:00 pm Five Minutes of Fame a.k.a. 5MoF - lightning 5min talks every 3rd Thursday of the month
- 1st 3rd 5th 6:00 pm to 8:00 pm Computerology in Turing or CollaborationStation, understanding and using computers
- 1st 3rd 5th 8:00 pm to 10:00 pm FUN Tutoring @ CollaborationStation
- E 1:00 pm to 2:00 pm CPP Class discussion in Hackitorum/Fox Lounge/Church. Currently looking for folks wanting to help plan out lessons.
- E 12:30 pm to 7:30 pm Dungeons and Dragons in Church, currently looking for new players.
- alternating monthly 1:00 pm Monthly Lock Sport Collaboration: Come learn how to pick locks and learn more about them with the SF Bay Area chapter of TOOOL. The group meets on alternating months at Noisebridge and in San Jose. Check the TOOOL SF announcement list for details.
- E 2pm to 4pm Algorithms Study Group in Church or Turing classroom - Whiteboarding + looking at really fun computer science topics. We want to make interviewing for code interviews fun and even continue our algorithm skills when we are not interviewing! Affiliated with Women Who Code, but Men welcome too.
- 2nd 2:00 pm BAHA - Bay Area Hacker's Association - security meeting
- E 3:00 pm Go - Playing of the Go board game. On nice days we often take the boards to Dolores Park and play there.
- E 6:00 pm Plan 9 class (if not Noisebridge check Sycamore)
HACK POLITICS: STILL HAPPENING? we must know.
Funds in bank: 16,931.18. Dropping some figures in here in advance. We may not actually discuss these at the meeting if there are more pressing issues, but here's some info in case you're interested. --Hurtstotouchfire 09:50, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
- 27: Number of members in confirmed good standing
- 37: Number of members including those probably in good standing but they pay in large chunks or pay in cash to a board member or I forgot to deposit their checks (sorry Will)
- 47: Number of members including those mentioned above as well as members who are past due beyond our bookkeeping lag
- 57: Number of members on "hiatus" (exclusive of active members and former members who have officially abdicated)
ARE WE OKAY WITH PEOPLE REMAINING ON HIATUS INDEFINITELY?
Jan - May 2011 (June & July still have outstanding items to reconcile)
By Number of Members:
- Starving Dues: 25%
- Regular Dues: 73%
- Doing Well Dues: 2%
By Portion of Dues Income:
- Starving Dues: 16%
- Regular Dues: 80%
- Doing Well Dues: 4%
Profit & Loss Jan-May 2011 - Google doc showing a whole bunch of different income items and expenditures, over the last few months.
- Read off any names from the binder for the past month. Write a check on every open application.
- Anyone up for joining this week (ie have four checks by their name + have two sponsors) should introduce themselves then leave the area in search of gifts (traditionally beer and a lime) for the rest of the group. The rest of the meeting should consense on whether they may join.
- Jonah: PRINCIPLES OF DOOCRACY AND EXCELLENCE. INSTEAD OF A PERPETUAL GUEST HE WOULD LIKE to be a responsible accountable dicks in ass contributing member
- VERY INVOLVED WITH THE FREE MARKET
- part of our doocracy is part of the shelf which this dude slept on for a couple days
- he's the guy with that musical instrument
- crutcher will block the fuck out of that
- Taylor: learn and create something new
- Kyle: no last name.
- catherine: hardware hacking and fun and stuff
- Oliver wants to build a slurpee machine. Hurf durf
- George: fifth noun? Learn and make new friends.
(Add any new items for consensus to the Current Consensus Items page.)
Up for consensus this week:
"For a trial period of six months, Noisebridge should sponsor an official project to provide Tor nodes, and accept donations earmarked for that purpose. "
- Crutcher: I BLOCK
- Kelly: You're not in good standing.
- Crutcher: I asked if I was in good standing at the start of this meeting and you told me to wait.
- Kelly: oh I told you to wait.
- Crutcher: see previous re donations and paypal etc
- Leif: What are your concerns with this proposal?
- Crutcher: I do not think that we have sufficient legal coverage to be involved in providing official tor nodes.
- Kelly: we have the EFF.
- Crutcher: are the EFF our lawyers of record?
- Kelly: They are our pretty close buddies.
- Leif: To clarify what our legal situation with the EFF is --
- Crutcher: Why is it necessary for us to have this as a consensus item?
- Leif: I'll assume you've just heard about this. The reason why we're doing this as a Noisebridge official project is because members already run their own, but there is a perceived legal risk that the EFF has been trying to defuse for some time. What they've found is that a lot of people would support Tor nodes being run but don't want to run them themselves. There is no organization (certainly not a 501c3) in the US that provides this service. The EFF has not become our official legal counsel. They have said that in the unlikely event that there are any problems they will help us find counsel. They might be our counsel, but the EFF does not agree to take on cases before the case exists as a matter of policy.
- Crutcher: Why not do it as a separate 501c3?
- MCT: They're giving money to an organization that has some standing in the community.
- Crutcher: Why not separate 501c3?
- MCT: Starting up a 501c3 is a lot of work and people have already done that to make Noisebridge happen. This is all within Noisebridge's charter of hacking the planet.
- Crutcher: The reason it was such a hard time for us was that we wanted one that worked with our governance structure
- All: No, that wasn't the problem.
- Chris: Not that hard. I personally think this is bringing a tremendous amount of risk on us. I'd like a separate group so that if this gets attacked Noisebridge has some measure of protection.
- Kelly: Initially wanted that, but as she looked into it, it needs to be in our accounts to be under our 501c3.
- Chris: Why does it have to be under our 501c3?
- Kelly: Sure, if we wanted a totally separate organization then we could do that, but there's no "create a 501c3" under the Noisebridge umbrella.
- Leif: This project would pay Noisebridge, not the other way around. 5% of income to defray administrative overhead.
- Shelf guy: Policies for this? Huge amount of risk might not want to take.
- Leif: Point of this project is to persuade ... there have never been any ramifications for any Tor nodes in the United States. The US government funds the Tor project, is the largest funder and always has been. There are lots of private individuals and businesses who run Tor nodes. We're basically trying to do that but in a more public way.
- Shelf guy: Why is the government so interested in creating Tor ndoes?
- Leif: Started out as a naval project. If you have an anonymous network for law enforcement to use then everybody using it is law enforcement. Likewise dissidents. The Tor project has a very diverse user base that benefits all of its users.
- Kelly: The EFF is endorsing the project.
- Chris: define what we're providing?
- Kelly: We have a document on the wiki: Tor that describes this.
- Leif: What we're doing in a nutshell is accepting earmarked donations and using these donations to rent storage in a datacenter to operate Tor nodes and a group of people for responding to any abuse complaints that come to it. I've been involved in running this with a group of friends and most of the complaints are abuse of copyright complaints. We have a number of different letters for people running Tor nodes. We will send them.
- Kelly: We're accepting donations in order to provide it.
- Leif: One of the worst case legal scenarios is that police that don't understand that there are no logs seize the server.
- Chris: To understand: We as an organization want to provide an anonymizing service for internet traffic. As long as we're not storing anything whatsoever --
- Jason: Can you explain why $worst_case_scenario is bad?
- Leif: Worst and best case is that that happens. If that were to happen, the EFF would almost certainly defend us or find someone who would. We would be a test case and establish precedent.
- Crutcher: I am not convinced --
- Jason: I support this because Noisebridge is about global terrorism. Let's get on with the terrorism!
- Shelf guy: $questions_about_drugs_and_cp and how would this affect our 501c3 status?
- Aestetix: rambling about 501c3 and politics and EFF and legal threats
- Shelf guy: To simplify it we're providing an anonymous onramp to the internet.
- Kelly: To clarify, the Tor project provides an anonymizing service for the internet. We will be providing nodes in the Tor project. If we do not provide these nodes, the anonymizing service still exists; we are just helping it. Established service, due diligence, not like we'd be designing this
- Leif: The organization that sponsors the software being written are themselves a 501c3 that is funded by a variety of sources including the US government.
- Shelf guy: Ten or 15 years ago there was an anonymizing thing in the Netherlands somewhere that got raided by the police. Is this replacing that technology?
- MCT: clarification
- John: Things on record about what tor actually does. It's multistep. Onion routing. More yada yada about random pedantic details of implementation
- Crutcher: The more --
- Kelly: Pause. Crutcher, d'you want to get [unintelligible]
- John: More rambling about nodes and databases and law enforcement
- Kelly: Ok so. What'd you want to talk about Crutcher?
- Crutcher: What he's saying is that if we get involved in any kind of exit or routing policy restrictions, the more involved we get, the greater liability attaches to us --
- John: Incorrect. If we discriminate on the basis of what kind of traffic --
- Kelly: Ok. So hang on, I feel like we have two tangents here.
- Shelf guy: Have they presented us with a written document?
- Kelly: They approached us and have our back. There is enormous community support for this software. This will probably be the single greatest income source Noisebridge has ever experienced.
- Shelf guy: Is it just us behind it?
- Kelly: There are thousands of people. People accept money in Europe. EFF wants an American 501c3 because their [unintelligible]
- Shelf guy: Can we get an American hacker group to go in on this with us?
- Kelly: No this is fine don't worry about it
- Shelf guy: Given OCD I'm comfortable. Concern would be cp etc
- Kelly: Deal with CP: CPers use Tor. FBI chasing CPers also use Tor.
- Crutcher: Are you willing to cripple the internet to stop CP?
- All: STFU crutcher
- Kelly: Focus discussion on addressing whatever are the blockable issues Crutcher is concerned about.
- Crutcher: I do not believe that Noisebridge with the way we make decisions is in a position to be the active policy provider for a service like this that is likely to see some legal action.
- Kelly: Have you read the document about this?
- Crutcher: No I haven't. Does the document say that it will bypass the consensus process and give some smaller group the ability to make decisions about this?
- Kelly: No, this is all of us.
- Crutcher: If we are in a situation where we are getting sued, we will not be in a position where we will be able to defend ourselves.
- Kelly: unintelligible
- Crutcher: I do not like that these core things that allow the organization to continue to exist will stop being the case if this something something
- Shelf guy: See where you're coming from. Mexican curse, very true: may you be involved in a lawsuit in which you know you are right. It would be a very, very bad thing for Noisebridge, it would take tremendous focus awawy from the rest of Noisebridge, and your proposition of limiting the ... to a more comfortable level would be more appropriate. Doing it with a clause that would not take a full consensus but a three-quarters majority --
- Kelly: we don't do that.
- Shelf guy: We may have to evolve.
- Chris: Quick thing. Looking at the wiki page we are acting merely as a financial funnel to these people. People who are not on our list who are administrating it --
- Kelly: People adminning are sitting here. They are members of the actual Noisebridge community --
- Crutcher: It depends on who we tell other people to give the money to.
- Kelly: Crutcher.
- Crutcher: I Would like either a private individual or a separate 501c3 that is not Noisebridge to be the organization that is renting the --
- Leif: Crutcher, are you saying that you are all right with Noisebridge being the umbrella if Noisebridge were to contract with some separate entity to do the thing? That's what we're doing. We're paying someon else.
- Crutcher: No one sues the datacenter provider. They go after the people who have that service.
- Leif: Are you suggesting a scenario that would be acceptable to you where Noisebridge would accept the donations and contract with someone else?
- Crutcher: I don't want Noisebridge to contract. I want Noisebridge to donate to a separate organization that is making the decision to run the node.
- Kelly: I want to put that on hold for a second and resolve the question.
- Chris: That clarified my question
- Jason: I have to say what is wrong with you people? Why do you think we have this 501c3? It is not to sit on our ass in this messy place and not do anything -- and I haven't been drinking -- it's to accomplish some things. And here we have an opportunity to accomplish some things. and we're choosing not to. And that is lame.
- Kelly: Crutcher is choosing not to.
- Jason: It means we all are. It means we suck.
- Kelly: I object to the idea that Crutcher can make me suck.
- Jason: We all suck. We are failing. I could go on and on about this --
- Kelly: This is glorious, but I wanna ask something something etc
- Crutcher: I don't understand why there's this feeling that establishing a new 501c3 is such a difficult thing. They can accept donations and spend money during their setup.
- John: 501c3 stuff
- Leif: We're specifically looking for a 501c3.
- Kelly: EFF feels an American 501c3 is the ideal situation for this.
- Crutcher: I'm not concerned about it doing us harm. If we get sued it'll be annoying. I don't think the way that we govern this community is the structure that I want behind that suit. I care about that suit, and we're a bunch of fucking clowns. If there's a lawsuit about this, I don't want us to be doing that.
- Kelly: What the EFF says is what we're going to do
- Crutcher: ...
- Jason: I have come here 3 weeks to see this passed. There's always a different person. You know what? You're gonna die some day, Crutcher. And all the shit you didn't do? You're gonna remember that shit.
- Kelly: [reading from Tor]
- Kelly: I felt very strongly that if this were sued, it would interfere with other Noisebridge functions. So if this project threatens Noisebridge or isn't doing what it's supposed to do or anything like this, management will be within this small group of individuals; consensus will not be required to terminate it. Consensus sufficient but not necessary. The understanding that we have is that the members of the project can suspend or terminate at any time and if the EFF told them, they would. Should this become an actually risky project, this needs to not be handled by the consensus process.
- Crutcher: Does the board of directors also have the power to shut this down?
- Leif: Legally yes. We have not said that.
- Crutcher: Can we put it in the writing?
- Kelly: De facto the project requires actually a subset of the board members in order to function. So effectively, yeah. What do you think about the idea of outside of the project intervention?
- Leif: I think that under California law, it's clear that the board could do that, but if we want to explicitly state that, do you have a...?
- Crutcher: There's a difference between what's law and what's policy.
- Leif: Yes. Having it stated would make it much more --
- Crutcher: How many board members do you think --
- Kelly: This is actually maybe slightly picky of me, but: do you want it to be a decision of the board, or should it be a Noisebridge officer?
- Crutcher: I would like it to be the board. A Noisebridge officer too, as a hair trigger, but also the board.
- Shelf guy: We should make this work. Why should we be like Rosa Parks and get up and move to the back of the bus?
- Kelly: I think that you could say that the de facto management of suspension and termination of this project is expected to be the Noisebridge project members, however under California law the board of directors etc etc. I would personally hope that the Noisebridge project people would do whatever's reasonable, and that they manage the day-to-day operations of anything going down, but should they fail, a decision of the board could -- [mct typing, i'm sure it'll show up somewhere]
- Kelly: Crutcher, what do you think?
- Aestetix: If you're bored, feel free to wander. We're in the deep legal crap, so
- Chris: I like the concept of the dead man's switch
- Crutcher: This says nothing about --
- Rabble: rabble rabble rabble
- Kelly: [reading from mct's laptop]
- Shelf guy: Can I ask a stupid question? We're not gonna do anything dumb like post on board saying "HEY CPers"
- Kelly: No we're not gonna do that
- Shelf guy: Okay, good.
- Some: This is an important project.
- Leif: We're concerned by legal threats by email. There have been totally baseless legal threats served by email.
- Kelly: Something something define litigation. Do you feel that that language is necessary or are there other ways to --
- Crutcher: On further consideration, I am comfortable with there being no statements on litigation in this consensus item. I don't want to force them into making certain legal decisions that they otherwise wouldn't have to.
- Kelly: Does the fact that the BoD has this power comfort you?
- Crutcher: Yes. Sure. I will consent to this. I really would like us to develop an organizational facility to spin off 501c3s as needed in the future.
- Kelly: As moderator, I'm going to say that I think it is the consensus of Noisebridge that: For a trial period of six months, Noisebridge should sponsor an official project to provide Tor nodes and accept donations earmarked for that purpose. I will also add that there should continue to be details added to the document on the wiki, that the current version will be marked, but if you are super-concerned, details will be added.
- Crutcher: And if it makes you feel better, I am a member in good standing now.
DONE BITCHES. MEETING OVER
- Crutcher: after 6 months on hiatus, you're fucked.
- Kelly: how was hiatus defined? How should it be?
- Chris: This may change the character of the space permanently
- Crutcher: people shouldn't be able to show up and block at random
- Kelly: People should expire solely due to lack of contact. If they disappear then they're fucked.
- Crutcher: we don't have to make them a non-member. We can just call them "inactive".
- NEXT WEEK: revising our accounting system. those who don't know: our accounting system "unpredictably" drops line items from paypal. it's a known problem that they're not planning to fix. WE SHOULD HAVE ANOTHER ONE
- Zero. Current system. Pretty poorly made. Takes forever to reconcile. Migrate to a system that doesn't require five to ten hours of work every single week (which is what we're at about now (I've spent fifteen hours reconciling or so over the past three days to catch us up)) so next week we should talk about a replacement. NEW ACCOUNTING SYSTEM
- REALISTICALLY, kelly is probably the more diligent option as far as treasurer goes. we should maybe make the position a little more reasonable to do in general for less-OCD people.
- FUTURE TREASURER FLAMEBAIT: paypal are fuckers. we should not use them anymore. whoever really loves paypal tell her about it.
- JASON: nobody really loves paypal. they stopped those wikileaks bastards.
- Kelly: grand loyalty of hacker community as embodied by resistance to not using paypal
- Jason: leveraged options on gold
End of Meeting
- PGP Key Signing could happen now, check the list to see who wants in on the action.
- Put back the membership binder in the black desk.
- Save the meeting notes to the wiki.
- Send a copy of the meeting notes to the discussion list.
- Copy the Meeting Notes Template for next week's agenda and update the main wiki page's link to it.
- Enjoy a cocktail with your fellow hacker or robot.